tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post1929443639916022555..comments2022-10-19T07:38:51.527+13:00Comments on The Dice Odyssey: Dispelling Myths: Warhammer WHFB Costs More to EnterRunicmadhamsterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16998940858801320118noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-70889517789057756382015-05-25T07:30:53.039+12:002015-05-25T07:30:53.039+12:00I would say that a comparison of tournament armies...I would say that a comparison of tournament armies would probably be fair. I played 40K competitively for years and just recently started fantasy. I will say that my IG were close in number to my skaven and my Dark Eldar were more numerous and vastly more expensive than my wood elves. Even comparing them to actual dark elves they out number them and are more expensive. BTW my dark eldar outnumber my 2500 point wood elf list at 1850. My tyranid list was as numerous as IG. My experience has been that Fantasy is cheaper and has a better fan base with more heart put into their armies<br />BryceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-72346281307397632772015-03-15T11:36:21.407+13:002015-03-15T11:36:21.407+13:00The reason why i did 1k lists was that its a good ...The reason why i did 1k lists was that its a good entry level points limit, it allows you to have the core of your army and some toys. But i can try them out at higher points levelsRunicmadhamsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16998940858801320118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-4690255411820008782015-03-15T09:39:45.093+13:002015-03-15T09:39:45.093+13:00What would you say is the most commonly played poi...What would you say is the most commonly played point levels for the two games? I mainly see 1500-1850 as the most commonly played level for 40k whereas Fantasy seems to be 2400+<br /><br />Is that fair? It's all good to compare the costs of getting started but if everyone is playing at 2400+ they aren't going to keep playing games with you at 1000 forever.Eldarainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17196256915719110810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-74481847267919683052015-03-15T07:19:28.037+13:002015-03-15T07:19:28.037+13:00I think once you start looking at alternate models...I think once you start looking at alternate models both game systems would cost the same provided you could find alternate models for all the units. For example using Mantic models to make a Imperial Guard Army and a Orc and Goblin Army the total cost would probably be roughly the same. <br /><br />With the other non Demon Lists i tried to pick armies that were similar, Orks and Orcs and Goblins are both horde armies and Eldar and High Elves are elite armies. But you are right, the best test was and is the Demon list comparison and its worth noting that in 40k a Bloodletter costs 10 points where as in Fantasy its cost 14Runicmadhamsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16998940858801320118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-76724773342749535742015-03-14T22:56:09.690+13:002015-03-14T22:56:09.690+13:00I think you make a good point there Rex - and tend...I think you make a good point there Rex - and tending to (even after reading the noted warseer links... which are completely ignoring effectiveness or "coolness" and simply aiming for the cheapest legal variant model wise) agree with you actually. <br /><br />Sorry Jayden - but you are coming across like a 40k fanboy riding the old beaten horse. "Nobody says fantasy is always more expensive. But ON AVERAGE it is." is a contradiction for a start. You seem to have completely missed the point about what Rex is talking about in his OP.<br /><br />Alll in all though... whilst it is perhaps an exercise in futility for those with nothing better to do... I wonder what the comparisons start to look like as well when using non-GW models. <br /><br />Worth nothing too that in reality the only true comparison can be made for 40k & WFB Daemon armies... given they use pretty much the same models. The variation amongst all the rest makes for poor cooking. Even if a benchmark is set for "tournament" armies it becomes problematic because the point scales used for each system are so widely different.Philfyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02340675868841535272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-24895211455469120432015-03-14T22:26:13.350+13:002015-03-14T22:26:13.350+13:00Needless to say i disagree, i believe my experimen...Needless to say i disagree, i believe my experiment was fair and if you disagree try it yourself, however i could be wrong. I didnt cheery pick at all, in all the WHFB lists there were far more expensive options i could have taken to reduce the model count but i didnt take those options.Runicmadhamsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16998940858801320118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-47650000788269176562015-03-14T22:10:22.994+13:002015-03-14T22:10:22.994+13:00But now you are setting limits etc. What does this...But now you are setting limits etc. What does this achieve? All your lists are saying is that there are some lists in 40k more expensive than in Fantasy, but I have never ever seen that disputed. Everybody knows this. <br /><br />You are cherry picking, why do your lists prove anything is what im saying? They dont. You are cherry picking. Your goal is to prove fantasy is no more expensive, but you have selected a tiny minority of lists that have no clear goal. Why these lists? They prove nothing is and was my original point. <br /><br />What does comparing demons have to do with anything? So what 40k demons are more expensive, but we arent comparing demons, we are comparing 2 game systems. That includes everything not just demons. If your title was "demons in 40k are more expensive than fantasy financially" then yes that would matter. <br /><br />Entry level armies? Why is 1k points an entry level army? Who decided that? An entry level 40k army is 2 troops and 1 HQ usually. Or a battleforce and an HQ. Most of the time new players will not be playing 1000 points off the bat. <br /><br />Anyway I will explain tomorrow. But watch those threads, they will show a range of lists by a range of people from a range of forces to find the cheapest way to buy into each game system. What you have in these lists prove nothing, they are just lists you chose. <br /><br />The evidence presented means nothing here, because it does not show the highest money cost for each system, does not include all armies, does not have the lowest cost and nor does it have clear goals or rules. Did your lists include unbound? Did you account for the 50% lords or 25% lords? What about books or rules? Allies? None of this is mentioned or talked about. Why arent ogres looked at? Or grey knights? <br /><br />If anyone has missed the point, it is you. Nobody says fantasy ios always more expensive. But ON AVERAGE it is. Heck its one of the main reasons people dont buy into the game! To try deny it is a problem, with shoddy evidence, is pretty bold. <br /><br />I will explain in person tomorrow anyway. Im pretty sure fantasy has the cheapest armies, but they pull a lot of shenanigans to get them and at the same time ignore a lot of rule possibilities 40k has to get that spot. Using all the rules available to each game, 40k is cheaper more often than not. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10127782785335814252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-26535711375900046562015-03-14T21:55:18.240+13:002015-03-14T21:55:18.240+13:00I am talking about entry level armies, 1k point li...I am talking about entry level armies, 1k point lists. I am not talking about how do you get the bare minimum needed to play. We are talking about different things.<br /><br />And again i wasn't cheery picking, if i was then the WHFB Orc list would have had Big Uns (which increases the points cost of standard Orc Boyz meaning less models in the list) more Black Orcs (once again more expensive so less models in the list) and i would have not had things like the Goblin Wolf riders. <br /><br />Also all uints in the Wh40K Demon codex are cheaper than in the WHFB army book, meaning more models in equal points lists and meaning you have to buy more for 40k than for FantasyRunicmadhamsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16998940858801320118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-39883797179608089552015-03-14T21:42:03.082+13:002015-03-14T21:42:03.082+13:00It is cherry picking, I sent you links to a more c...It is cherry picking, I sent you links to a more conclusive test that is actual proof. <br /><br />You haven't proved anything here, just that you can make some fantasy lists cheaper than some 40k lists, which was already common knowledge. Nothing to see here really when you take it into account. If I took some random fantasy lists then took some 40k ones that were cheaper, would you not respond saying that there are cheaper lists possible to prove your point? Thats exactly what is happening here, except I am pointing out that there are cheaper lists possible for both sides. <br /><br />But to say fantasy costs less to get into is flat out lying. 1 box of fire warriors and a crisis suit more than you need to start 40k even following the force org chart. That along is cheaper than most of the cheapest fantasy forces. Would you not agree? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10127782785335814252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-13005889273044197142015-03-14T21:34:56.587+13:002015-03-14T21:34:56.587+13:00That wasn't cheery picking, that was making 6 ...That wasn't cheery picking, that was making 6 generic lists for those races and looking at the costs, i wasn't trying to make specialized list i was purposely trying to make generic lists.<br /><br />Regardless a Khorne Herald in WHFB costs 100 points and the same model costs 55 points in 40k.<br /><br />If you think i did the test wrong, do it yourself as i am fairly confident that the WHFB list will cost lessRunicmadhamsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16998940858801320118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5350909421320911401.post-525445909150976242015-03-14T21:26:08.154+13:002015-03-14T21:26:08.154+13:00I dont think you have done enough research. There ...I dont think you have done enough research. There are far cheaper 40k lists, and far cheaper fantasy lists. On average 40k is cheaper to start, requiring less boxes (especially with unbound) and requiring (on average) less models. <br /><br />Anyway Keep an eye on these for some information. I suggest you use this method to find a cheaper price rather than cherry picking. <br /><br />Fantasy:<br /><br />http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?405489-Cheapest-1000-pt-army-for-all-races<br /><br />40K (made hours ago, watch that space)<br /><br />http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?406638-Cheapest-1000-pt-army-for-all-races-40K-edition&p=7403063<br /><br />I wouldnt call what you have done much evidence. Personally I think a better one would be to get the cheapest price for each army available using all the rules available and see the average price per army at its cheapest, then see which game has cheaper entry (obviously include the highest and lowest prices). I think you will find 40k, due to its flexible rules will come out cheaper. <br /><br />40k definitely has a lower point of entry though. That is undeniable, unless you can beat the price of 10 guardsmen (a legal 40k army) for example. Warhammer can only be cheaper if you set rules (like points limits, no unbound and so on) to even the playing field. <br /><br />So yes, Fantasy costs more to enter. Find the cheapest model on the GW site for 40k, that is the model entry cost for a legal unbound army. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10127782785335814252noreply@blogger.com