There is an often repeated Myth abut WHFB that is both costs more and has a higher models count than 40k, the argument goes to to say that this discourages prole from starting WHFB and thus WHFB is less popular than WH40k. I have had this argument now with a number of people and it has never convinced me mainly because people who make this argument never actually bring up an evidence to back up their claim. I was thinking about this today and wondered if the people making this argument were right, and so i did a experiment to find out if this was the case. what i did was go onto Army Builder and make 6 lists, 1 Orc and Goblin list and 1 Ork List, 1 High Elf List and 1 Eldar List and 1 WHFB Demons list and 1 40k Demons list. All the lists were built with 7th ed 40k codexs and 8th ed WHFB Army Books.
Starting off with the Orcs, i have posted ths lists below with total price tag in NZD.
1000 Pts - Codex: Orks Roster
Total Roster Cost: 990
: Combined Arms Detachment (Primary Detachment) (61#, 990 pts)
1 Warboss, 97 pts = (base cost 60 + 'Eavy Armour 4 + Cybork Body 5 + Power Klaw 25 + Twin-linked Shoota 3)
1 Weirdboy, 70 pts = (base cost 45 + Upgrade to Pysker (Mastery Level 2) 25)
20 Boyz, 230 pts = 20 * 11 (base cost 6 + 'Eavy Armour 4 + Shoota 1) + Big Shoota x2 10
20 Boyz, 210 pts = 20 * 10 (base cost 6 + 'Eavy Armour 4) + Big Shoota x2 10
1 Boss Meganob, 40 pts
1 Meganobz, 40 pts
1 Meganobz, 40 pts
1 Dakkajet, 110 pts
5 Tankbustas, 65 pts = 5 * 13
1 Mek Gun, 30 pts = (base cost 18 + Kustom Mega-Kannon 12)
1 Mek Gun, 30 pts = (base cost 18 + Kustom Mega-Kannon 12)
1 Mek Gun, 30 pts = (base cost 18 + Kustom Mega-Kannon 12)
Total Cost=722 NZD
1000 Pts - Orcs & Goblins Roster
Total Roster Cost: 979
Orc Big Boss (1#, 109 pts)
1 Orc Big Boss, 59 pts = (base cost 55 + Great Weapon 4)
1 Armour of Destiny, 50 pts
Orc Big Boss (1#, 125 pts)
1 Orc Big Boss, 80 pts = (base cost 55 + Battle Standard Bearer 25)
1 Armour of Silvered Steel, 45 pts
Orc Shaman (1#, 125 pts)
1 Orc Shaman, 100 pts = (base cost 65 + Level 2 Wizard 35)
1 Dispel Scroll, 25 pts
Orc Boyz (20#, 195 pts)
19 Orc Boyz, 172 pts = 19 * 8 (base cost 6 + Spear 1 + Shield 1) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
1 Orc Boss, 23 pts = (base cost 21 + Spear 1 + Shield 1)
Night Goblins (21#, 210 pts)
19 Night Goblins, 122 pts = 19 * 3 (base cost 3) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10 + Netters 45
1 Night Goblin Boss, 13 pts
3 Night Goblin Fanatics, 75 pts
Goblin Wolf Riders (6#, 72 pts)
6 Goblin Wolf Riders, 72 pts = 6 * 12 (base cost 10 + Spear 1 + Short Bow 1)
Black Orcs (10#, 155 pts)
9 Black Orcs, 128 pts = 9 * 12 (base cost 12) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
1 Black Orc Boss, 27 pts
Total cost=491 NZD
You can see right away that there is a huge price gap between the WHFB and 40k lists with the 40k list being the more expensive list by far. For Model Count the WHFB list has 60 Models to the WH40k list's 52, so the WHFB has 8 more models but thats really not that much of a deal.
Next up is the High Elves and Eldar Lists
1000 Pts - High Elves Roster
Total Roster Cost: 1000
Noble (1#, 124 pts)
1 Noble, 74 pts = (base cost 70 + Halberd 2 + Shield 2)
1 Armour of Destiny, 50 pts
Noble (1#, 147 pts)
1 Noble, 97 pts = (base cost 70 + Battle Standard Bearer 25 + Shield 2)
1 Armour of Caledor, 50 pts
Mage (1#, 145 pts)
1 Mage, 120 pts = (base cost 85 + Level 2 Wizard 35)
1 Dispel Scroll, 25 pts
Silver Helms (8#, 214 pts)
7 Silver Helms, 181 pts = 7 * 23 (base cost 21 + Shield 2) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
1 High Helm, 33 pts = (base cost 31 + Shield 2)
Sword Masters of Hoeth (10#, 160 pts)
9 Swordmasters of Hoeth, 137 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
1 Bladelord, 23 pts
Spearmen (14#, 156 pts)
13 Spearmen, 137 pts = 13 * 9 (base cost 9) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
1 Sentinel, 19 pts
Great Eagle (1#, 50 pts)
1 Great Eagle, 50 pts
Total Cost= 386 NZD
1000 Pts - Codex: Eldar Roster
Total Roster Cost: 998: Combined Arms Detachment (43#, 998 pts)
1 Farseer, 110 pts = (base cost 100 + Runes of Warding 10)
9 Dire Avengers, 117 pts = 9 * 13
1 Dire Avenger Exarch, 23 pts
10 Guardian Defenders, 90 pts = 10 * 9
1 Heavy Weapon Platform, 20 pts + Starcannon 20
5 Fire Dragons, 110 pts = 5 * 22
1 Fire Dragon Exarch, 32 pts
1 Crimson Hunter, 160 pts
5 Warp Spiders, 95 pts = 5 * 19
5 Dark Reapers, 150 pts = 5 * 30
1 Dark Reaper Exarch, 40 pts
3 Windrider Jetbike Squad, 51 pts = 3 * 17
Total Cost= 593 NZD
Once again the 40k list costs more than the WHFB list with model count being 35 for 40K and 36 for WHFB. Finally we come to the Demon lists
1000 Pts - Daemons of Chaos Roster (WHFB)
Total Roster Cost: 975
Herald of Khorne (1#, 150 pts)
1 Herald of Khorne, 100 pts
1 Greater Gift, 50 pts
Herald of Khorne (1#, 125 pts)
1 Herald of Khorne, 125 pts = (base cost 100 + Battle Standard Bearer 25)
Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 170 pts)
9 Bloodletters of Khorne, 146 pts = 9 * 14 (base cost 14) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
1 Bloodreaper, 24 pts
Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 170 pts)
9 Bloodletters of Khorne, 146 pts = 9 * 14 (base cost 14) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
1 Bloodreaper, 24 pts
Bloodcrushers of Khorne (3#, 225 pts)
2 Bloodcrushers of Khorne, 150 pts = 2 * 65 (base cost 65) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
1 Bloodhunter, 75 pts
Skull Cannon of Khorne (3#, 135 pts)
1 Skull Cannon of Khorne, 135 pts
Total Cost= 378 NZD
1000 Pts - Codex: Chaos Daemons Roster (WH40K)
Total Roster Cost: 1000
: Combined Arms Detachment (46#, 1000 pts)
1 Herald of Khorne, 110 pts = (base cost 55 + DR: Lesser Rewards x1 10 + DR: Greater Rewards 20 + L: Exalted Locus of Wrath 25)
1 Herald of Khorne, 155 pts = (base cost 55 + DR: Lesser Rewards x1 10 + DR: Greater Rewards 20 + L: Exalted Locus of Wrath 25 + DS: Juggernaut of Khorne 45)
10 Bloodletters of Khorne, 100 pts = 10 * 10
1 Bloodreaper, 15 pts
10 Bloodletters of Khorne, 100 pts = 10 * 10
1 Bloodreaper, 15 pts
10 Bloodletters of Khorne, 100 pts = 10 * 10
1 Bloodreaper, 15 pts
5 Flesh Hounds of Khorne, 80 pts = 5 * 16
3 Bloodcrushers of Khorne, 135 pts = 3 * 45
1 Bloodhunter, 50 pts
1 Skull Cannon of Khorne, 125 pts
Total Cost= 529 NZD
Once again the 40k list costs more and this time the 40k list has the higher model count with 41 models to WHFB's 26.
So with all 3 lists the 40k list cost more. As for model count the 2 lists where WHFB had more it was barely more but with the 3rd list there was quite a bit more 40k models that WHFB models. Now you may say that i biased the lists in favour of WHFB and rigged the whole things, in which case i invite you to try this out for yourself and see what you get, i tried my hardest to ensure that i was making generic 40k and Fantasy lists but feel free to try this out yourself.
At the end of the day the myth that WHFB is somehow more expensive to get into than 40k is just a myth, 40k costs more to get into than fantasy which would make sense because it seems that 40k is more popular and so GW would want it to cost more to get into, more money for them after all.
The last thing i wanted to say is this, if you make a claim like WHFB is more expensive to get into than 40k be prepared to back up your claim with evidence, otherwise no one will take your claim seriously. Until next time.
Rex
Dispelling Myths: Warhammer WHFB Costs More to Enter
I dont think you have done enough research. There are far cheaper 40k lists, and far cheaper fantasy lists. On average 40k is cheaper to start, requiring less boxes (especially with unbound) and requiring (on average) less models.
ReplyDeleteAnyway Keep an eye on these for some information. I suggest you use this method to find a cheaper price rather than cherry picking.
Fantasy:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?405489-Cheapest-1000-pt-army-for-all-races
40K (made hours ago, watch that space)
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?406638-Cheapest-1000-pt-army-for-all-races-40K-edition&p=7403063
I wouldnt call what you have done much evidence. Personally I think a better one would be to get the cheapest price for each army available using all the rules available and see the average price per army at its cheapest, then see which game has cheaper entry (obviously include the highest and lowest prices). I think you will find 40k, due to its flexible rules will come out cheaper.
40k definitely has a lower point of entry though. That is undeniable, unless you can beat the price of 10 guardsmen (a legal 40k army) for example. Warhammer can only be cheaper if you set rules (like points limits, no unbound and so on) to even the playing field.
So yes, Fantasy costs more to enter. Find the cheapest model on the GW site for 40k, that is the model entry cost for a legal unbound army.
That wasn't cheery picking, that was making 6 generic lists for those races and looking at the costs, i wasn't trying to make specialized list i was purposely trying to make generic lists.
DeleteRegardless a Khorne Herald in WHFB costs 100 points and the same model costs 55 points in 40k.
If you think i did the test wrong, do it yourself as i am fairly confident that the WHFB list will cost less
It is cherry picking, I sent you links to a more conclusive test that is actual proof.
DeleteYou haven't proved anything here, just that you can make some fantasy lists cheaper than some 40k lists, which was already common knowledge. Nothing to see here really when you take it into account. If I took some random fantasy lists then took some 40k ones that were cheaper, would you not respond saying that there are cheaper lists possible to prove your point? Thats exactly what is happening here, except I am pointing out that there are cheaper lists possible for both sides.
But to say fantasy costs less to get into is flat out lying. 1 box of fire warriors and a crisis suit more than you need to start 40k even following the force org chart. That along is cheaper than most of the cheapest fantasy forces. Would you not agree?
I am talking about entry level armies, 1k point lists. I am not talking about how do you get the bare minimum needed to play. We are talking about different things.
ReplyDeleteAnd again i wasn't cheery picking, if i was then the WHFB Orc list would have had Big Uns (which increases the points cost of standard Orc Boyz meaning less models in the list) more Black Orcs (once again more expensive so less models in the list) and i would have not had things like the Goblin Wolf riders.
Also all uints in the Wh40K Demon codex are cheaper than in the WHFB army book, meaning more models in equal points lists and meaning you have to buy more for 40k than for Fantasy
But now you are setting limits etc. What does this achieve? All your lists are saying is that there are some lists in 40k more expensive than in Fantasy, but I have never ever seen that disputed. Everybody knows this.
DeleteYou are cherry picking, why do your lists prove anything is what im saying? They dont. You are cherry picking. Your goal is to prove fantasy is no more expensive, but you have selected a tiny minority of lists that have no clear goal. Why these lists? They prove nothing is and was my original point.
What does comparing demons have to do with anything? So what 40k demons are more expensive, but we arent comparing demons, we are comparing 2 game systems. That includes everything not just demons. If your title was "demons in 40k are more expensive than fantasy financially" then yes that would matter.
Entry level armies? Why is 1k points an entry level army? Who decided that? An entry level 40k army is 2 troops and 1 HQ usually. Or a battleforce and an HQ. Most of the time new players will not be playing 1000 points off the bat.
Anyway I will explain tomorrow. But watch those threads, they will show a range of lists by a range of people from a range of forces to find the cheapest way to buy into each game system. What you have in these lists prove nothing, they are just lists you chose.
The evidence presented means nothing here, because it does not show the highest money cost for each system, does not include all armies, does not have the lowest cost and nor does it have clear goals or rules. Did your lists include unbound? Did you account for the 50% lords or 25% lords? What about books or rules? Allies? None of this is mentioned or talked about. Why arent ogres looked at? Or grey knights?
If anyone has missed the point, it is you. Nobody says fantasy ios always more expensive. But ON AVERAGE it is. Heck its one of the main reasons people dont buy into the game! To try deny it is a problem, with shoddy evidence, is pretty bold.
I will explain in person tomorrow anyway. Im pretty sure fantasy has the cheapest armies, but they pull a lot of shenanigans to get them and at the same time ignore a lot of rule possibilities 40k has to get that spot. Using all the rules available to each game, 40k is cheaper more often than not.
Needless to say i disagree, i believe my experiment was fair and if you disagree try it yourself, however i could be wrong. I didnt cheery pick at all, in all the WHFB lists there were far more expensive options i could have taken to reduce the model count but i didnt take those options.
DeleteI think you make a good point there Rex - and tending to (even after reading the noted warseer links... which are completely ignoring effectiveness or "coolness" and simply aiming for the cheapest legal variant model wise) agree with you actually.
ReplyDeleteSorry Jayden - but you are coming across like a 40k fanboy riding the old beaten horse. "Nobody says fantasy is always more expensive. But ON AVERAGE it is." is a contradiction for a start. You seem to have completely missed the point about what Rex is talking about in his OP.
Alll in all though... whilst it is perhaps an exercise in futility for those with nothing better to do... I wonder what the comparisons start to look like as well when using non-GW models.
Worth nothing too that in reality the only true comparison can be made for 40k & WFB Daemon armies... given they use pretty much the same models. The variation amongst all the rest makes for poor cooking. Even if a benchmark is set for "tournament" armies it becomes problematic because the point scales used for each system are so widely different.
I think once you start looking at alternate models both game systems would cost the same provided you could find alternate models for all the units. For example using Mantic models to make a Imperial Guard Army and a Orc and Goblin Army the total cost would probably be roughly the same.
DeleteWith the other non Demon Lists i tried to pick armies that were similar, Orks and Orcs and Goblins are both horde armies and Eldar and High Elves are elite armies. But you are right, the best test was and is the Demon list comparison and its worth noting that in 40k a Bloodletter costs 10 points where as in Fantasy its cost 14
What would you say is the most commonly played point levels for the two games? I mainly see 1500-1850 as the most commonly played level for 40k whereas Fantasy seems to be 2400+
ReplyDeleteIs that fair? It's all good to compare the costs of getting started but if everyone is playing at 2400+ they aren't going to keep playing games with you at 1000 forever.
The reason why i did 1k lists was that its a good entry level points limit, it allows you to have the core of your army and some toys. But i can try them out at higher points levels
DeleteI would say that a comparison of tournament armies would probably be fair. I played 40K competitively for years and just recently started fantasy. I will say that my IG were close in number to my skaven and my Dark Eldar were more numerous and vastly more expensive than my wood elves. Even comparing them to actual dark elves they out number them and are more expensive. BTW my dark eldar outnumber my 2500 point wood elf list at 1850. My tyranid list was as numerous as IG. My experience has been that Fantasy is cheaper and has a better fan base with more heart put into their armies
ReplyDeleteBryce